From the Yellow Chair
From the Yellow Chair
Unlock the mystery of building a strong foundation with Dave Sullivan
Ready to stop chasing topline and start building a business that lasts? We sit down with Dave Sullivan—third-generation contractor, founder of The Roofer Show, and coach to growth-minded owners—to unpack how real progress comes from balancing three essentials: selling work, doing work, and keeping score. If your company leans too hard on one leg, you feel it in missed deadlines, thin margins, and constant cash stress.
We walk through practical ways to get your foundation right, from clean bookkeeping and job costing to pricing for profit and forecasting cash. Dave explains why high growth without margin is a cash bonfire, how to align marketing throttle with production capacity, and what weekly numbers actually matter. For leaders stuck at $2–5M in revenue, we outline the diagnostic steps to get unstuck: rebalance your stool, document core processes, and either learn the skills you lack or hire well to fill them.
Brand and culture take center stage too. A distinctive, authentic brand doesn’t just win attention—it magnets quality customers and recruits great people. When your team loves where they work, they become your best recruiters, compounding capacity. We get specific about defining your ideal customer, avoiding generic “roof logo” branding, and using a one-page business plan to keep everyone focused on the same mountaintop. Whether you’re fighting for early survival or steering a mature company, the path is the same: clarity, discipline, and leadership.
Tune in for candid stories, concrete tactics, and free tools like Dave’s one-page plan and roofing success audit. If you’re serious about profitable growth, better culture, and a brand that works as hard as you do, hit play, subscribe, and share this with a contractor who needs it. Then tell us: which leg of your stool needs work today?
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From the Yellow Chair is powered by Lemon Seed, a marketing strategy and branding company for the trades. Lemon Seed specializes in rebrands, creating unique, comprehensive, organized marketing plans, social media, and graphic design. Learn more at www.LemonSeedMarketing.com
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We'll see you next time, Lemon Heads!
What's up, Lemon Heads? Welcome to another episode of From the Yellow Chair Crystal. And listen, we are going towards the end of the year right now as this is being recorded. Everybody is in growth mode and what they can do and how they can grow their business. And so my guest today is no stranger to mentoring and helping contractors know how to build a good business. So you're gonna want to settle in for this, get ready to listen, maybe get your toes stepped on a little bit, but let's get into it. Let's sip some lemonade. Well, Dave, welcome to the show. I've gotten the privilege of being on your show. And I was like, why did I not think about this? You have such great stuff to bring to the table. So welcome, welcome. Tell everybody about you, Mr. Dave Sullivan. Tell everybody about what you've got going on.
SPEAKER_01:Well, it's great to see you again, Crystal. It has been a while. I just looked it up, and this is going back, oh, I don't know, 20, 20, 30 episodes on my show when we got together and talked about branding, building a brand that matters. It's a great show, got some great response. So, anyway, great to see you again.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. Well, you do have a great podcast called the Roofer Show Podcast, over 450 episodes. So, from a fellow podcaster, that is a lot of episodes to get out. So, congratulations on achieving that. But you you are a third generation, um, making sure I get this right, um, roofing business owner. And so you've lived that life. So you're not just a coach that's never a mentor that's never done it, you've been in the trenches before.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I grew up in California here in a small roofing business, family roofing business. And um I went to college out here in uh University of California in business school, and the plan was graduate, go into business with my father, take over the business and go from there. But he ended up getting sick right after I got out of school. I had to come in, and even with a business degree, I didn't know what the hell I was doing. It's it's a whole different thing, you know. You're just thrown in the fire, and I really didn't have him to show me the ropes. So it was um it was a tough go, and I learned a lot uh uh you know from growing this business. We I I was a contractor for 30 years and grew this business for the eight-figure business and and then um was able to step aside and then I ended up selling it. And I retired, and then you know, it's kind of be careful what you wish for. I found out that you know I I needed a little more to do. You could only only play golf so much and so forth. So I started this podcast, and this is back in the day where podcasts were just really starting up, and I listened to a lot of them, and you know, you can find general contracting and so forth, but there weren't any podcasts in the briefing space. So I was kind of the pioneer of that and started doing it, loved it, and through that, a number of contractors started reaching out and saying, hey, you know, I like what you're talking about. Um, you know, could you work with me and so forth? And that kind of developed into some coaching, and I do, you know, a fair amount. I just have uh, you know, some client, uh not too many clients, and kind of do this half a day, and then I do the retirement thing the rest of the year. There you go.
SPEAKER_00:So you got a little golf course and a little mentoring going on over there. Well, I I'm excited to talk to you today because I love mentor. I think mentorship is really something needed in our industry. You know, you mentioned this earlier as we were prepping for this episode. You're like, you know, these guys go out, Crystal, to all of these um shows and conventions and summits and whatever fancy word we want to tie it up in. And they come back with actually no real plan of implementation. And and what you said to me also kind of stuck out as basically, Crystal, they've kind of built their business, or at least they feel like their business is built on a house of cards. And that list really resonated with me because I deal with contractors every day that I think their actual foundational portion of their business is actually very weak. Um, if it exists at all, they're literally flying by the seat of their pants, they're flying with tons of credit, they are like no processes and no real plan. And so I wish more of them would actually deploy a mentorship strategy to help them just get their this sounds like my grandma talking to me, but get their affairs in order, right? Get themselves in order. Um, and so what are some of these like mistakes and things that you see um these contractors making that literally maybe their business is built on a house of cards?
SPEAKER_01:Well, the the way that I look at a business is it's really like a three-legged stool. Okay, and we've got to keep those legs strong and solid so that the stool is in balance. Those legs are we have to sell work, we have to do work, and we have to keep score. And each of those three legs needs to be in balance. And what we find is so many contractors so that they'll come up through sales, for instance. Well, that's one of the legs, but they never learn the business end of the business. So they don't understand the scorekeeping, the accounting, the bookkeeping, and then they have a hard time with the production, with doing the work. Or they come up through the trades, they may be you know great at doing the work, they understand all that, but they're not great salespeople, they're not great businessmen. So it's about trying to keep that that that stool in balance, and that's what's really important because it is pretty much as simple as that, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. And you know, marketing, I use this same analogy a lot with with how it comes down to pricing and operations and marketing, and how all three of those are a very important piece. But I think this is really about identifying which one of those people are you, which one of those owners are you? Do you feel more confident on the business side than you do on the selling and technical side? Or are you, which this happens, I think, a lot in the HVAC and plumbing space. They're normally great technicians, right? They can they can fix anything, they can install anything, they know anything who manual who, right? They don't need any of that, but then they can't read a PL statement, they don't understand how to price competitively, they don't know how to negotiate. Like, how do I come to the negotiations um with equipment or whatever supplies that they have for their service? And so, you know, I think it's about determining that um and really then honing in on those skills. So either you you yourself have to learn and adapt to learning those skills, or you have to put people on your team that fill in those holes, you know. So I'm a visionary um at Lemon Seed and I was a visionary at McWilliams, and then I work with you know Emily May over at Eminem Roofing. She and I are both visionaries um for the company. And at the end of the day, like I play a very small role. She is a killer at that, but she has vision and she's like, she'll tell me, like, I learned to read a PL. Um and she had to learn, she had to learn the whole thing. She was a nurse, you know, and had to do the whole figure out every piece of it. And so, you know, the capacity piece you also mentioned basically like being able to do the work. I see a lot of people say, I want to grow my business, and they mean revenue-wise. And then I'm like, you don't even have the capacity to actually achieve this. And so they have, you know, big, big eyes on these large revenue numbers, but no plan to actually have the team to do it, right? So I think a lot of times that we we really see the owner doesn't really know what role to play, or how do they make their role better? You see that same thing.
SPEAKER_01:Definitely, and first off, I want to say I love Ellen uh Emily May because we worked together for years and she was an investormind group of this and so forth. She's great and has done an amazing job with that business. And I know that um you've really helped her along with particularly starting off that branding. That's it's amazing. So you know, it's first off, it's you know, when I work with people, I work with contractors, it's kind of like, hey, leave your ego at the door, first off, because they don't see that they need this, okay, particularly when it comes to the numbers. Nobody likes the numbers, uh, they don't really understand it. So they either bring somebody in that's unqualified, or, you know, frankly, just honest. And this is where they get embezzled all the time. But it's always one of those things, and that's usually where the problem is. And we spend a lot of money on, I mean a lot of time on building that out, getting them to understand their numbers, how to price their jobs. They don't they don't price their jobs where they can make a profit. So they're they're they're just looking at that top line, and it's not about the top line, it's about the profitability, because this is how you grow a business. And unfortunately, you know, if you look at all the I mean, all the seminars, all the books, everything is, you know, I'll give you the secrets to 10 extra business. And yeah, you can go out and sell all the work you want at the at a low price, but then you can't get the work on. Or usually they run out of cash because if you're in a high growth mode, you're burning through the cash and they don't understand their cash management. So by taking a holistic approach to your business, and that's really what it is, is getting that down and making sure your foundation is built out so then you can grow your business on that strong foundation and it's sustainable. And you know, and that and that's the thing. You see these high growth companies, and they're gone in you know, three, four years.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and you know, like you're saying cash flow management. I had to learn that at Lemon Seed. My brother was like, You got to manage your cash flow. And these are yeah, you learn that pretty quick. You know, like I love branding. I think branding is such a core component of a strong foundation for any trades business for sure. Um, and so I spend a lot of time like encouraging people like, hey, it's so much harder to build this, you know, two, three, five million dollar company and then go back and try to set up processes. So the earlier you are in your business, the better you'll be if you start now like doing the hard things um and investing where you can slowly but surely to not get yourself into any financial stress. But honestly, I think the biggest mistakes that I see people make is they just get, again, big eyes, and they're just like they're chasing that dollar. And I'm here for it. Like I'm aggressive, I'm competitive, I love it. But at the same time, we have to do things decent and in order, right? So, like we need to be clear with our goals. We need to document processes, and then we need to have those foundational pieces like financial literacy in our business, a solid brand so there's something to build on, and then a just a pricing capacity understanding of how to actually do it, you know. Like again, so many people talk about it, but hardly anyone has to actually do it. And um, so I know we were building the pest control company. Um, you know, my sister was basically like handed this company, and my brother was building it. And my sisters had to learn like just from being gritty, right? Just getting in there and figuring it out. And, you know, I've just been preaching and she gets it like she knows the stronger we can make the foundation at 18 months in, the even better we're gonna be at 24 months and 36 months, you know. Um, and so I just I wish that contractors really um, you know, understood that profitability is where it's at, brand awareness is what builds long-term success, you know. And, you know, I want them to build a business that supports their dreams, but doesn't consume their life, you know, and to do that, you have to operate like your mental change has to be to a business owner. You are no longer a roofer, a pest control, an HVAC guys, you're an entrepreneur, and now that mind shift has to happen. So it has to go past the shingles, past the pesticides, past all those things now to literally running a business. Um, and I think that's definitely a strong, a strong call out there. So, do you can you think of a couple of things that you think contractors do um well? Like what did Emily May, like people like Emily, what did they do well that really you see boosts their business knowledge? Maybe they're just their business acumen. What are they doing?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think the strength of Emily May is that you're right, she is a visionary, she's pretty clear on what she wants to do, and she dives in there and learns she didn't know anything about you know the roofing business and so forth. So she learned um what to do. And I think with her in particular, she's a good leader, and she's a good um has built a great culture and built a great brand. And that's you know, where she's got good people that want to work there, you know, that she's able to attract, and then they can do a great job. And she's got a good plan, and this is where we always start. And I remember working with her when she first came out of the gate, you know. We always start off with you know, your why. Why are you doing this? You know, you want to get into the roofing business? Are you crazy? First off, and then what's your destination? What do you want to do with this business? And then and only then can we come back and build a roadmap to get us there. But you've got to really understand, and we spent a lot of time digging down because most everybody, I want to 10x my business. I'm doing I'm doing a million dollars now, I want to do five million dollars next year, and I want your help. I go, okay, well, you're making money at one? You go, eh, not really. Well, then you're not gonna make any money at five, you're just gonna lose money faster. And that's not how it works. So we've got to dig down. You know, do you want a lifestyle business? Do you want, do you really want to have a large business so you can pound your chest and be, you know, the biggest guy in town, type of thing? And that's fine too. We can do that, but it's two different plans. Generally, what happens when you get down to it, and you go, Well, you know, I'm I'm just killing myself right now, I've got a young family, I never see them, and you know, I'm working so hard, and if I was only doing five million dollars, I wouldn't have to do that. I go, No, it doesn't work that way. You're never gonna see your family on a scale, scale a business like that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you just bought yourself a 90-hour, 100-hour a week job, you know. That's right, yeah. Yeah, well, and so going back to culture, and you know, I'll talk a little bit about brand, which I know doesn't surprise you, but you know, branding is so much more for contractors than they than they actually realize. So this is not just the logo, it's not just the tarp that's gonna, it's not just the vehicle wraps, like you have to create a true um brand, an emotional connection, a culture, all of those things, the entire customer journey and employee journey is all reflective of your brand. And so it's such a key component to the foundational setup of your business. Um, because you know, when you know your why and you're aggressive, you know, I'm almost every contractor in my life isn't aggressive, they want to grow uh quickly. Um, so but they understand that there's some things that just take time, there are some things that just need to be done, and they're not they're the expensive side, they're not the super fancy side. But you know, you mentioned Emily, like building a culture. So, you know, when you build a culture of growth and a culture of hustle, yet not overworking everyone the best you can and being being a just a good place to work, then you start multiplying your capacity uh because people want other people to come work with them, right? So you should come work with me, you should come work with me. And that exponentially compounds your capacity because now instead of you don't you almost have a self-generating uh lead resource for new team members because your own people want to extend their blessing, if you will, of their job to their friends, their family, and their extended, you know, network. And that honestly, when I see people struggling for employees, sometimes I'm like, ah, this really might be a culture problem. So there's that. But with branding, you know, I say this and I don't not sure that all contractors really grasp this idea. They're like, just give me something cute and put me on the road. Well, when you are building a company, there has to be some authenticity to what you're building. So even if that authenticity is that you just believe in branding, and so you're all about this cool name or mascot or color or whatever we're using. Um, but honestly, I think so many contractors sleep on the power of a good brand. Um, they're like, well, I'm just gonna call it Williams Roofing. Um, and it's gonna have a it's gonna be really unique. It's gonna have a roof and the logo, you know, and I'm like, every roofing company has a roof and the logo, you know, that's not new. And so it certainly doesn't help you stand out. So you already are kind of kicking off your business in a disadvantage because it blends in and there's no hooks for people to sink their marketing teeth into. Um, and your community, it gets lost in a in a blur of marketing. Um, you know, we're marketed to so much everywhere we look, everything we watch, everything we every scroll, every email we're being sold to, sold to, sold to. So you need something cool on those trucks that are rolling around. Those are mobile billboards, right? We need those to be um reflective of the brand that we are. So we need that look to reflect. Are we a serious company? Are we an edgy company? Are we an innovative company? Are we a you know, just very traditional and kind and do what we're supposed to do? Um, but if we sleep on that and we're just like, well, I'm just gonna call it Williams Roofing, and I really don't want to do anything out of out of the ordinary. And I'm like, okay, well, so you're gonna get ordinary results. If you're gonna do something ordinary, your brand will not give you any lift, right? So you're gonna go get all these things in place, right? You're gonna go get the financial acumen that you need, you're gonna be priced correctly, you're gonna source product, you're gonna build capacity, and then you have this dinky little brand that doesn't help anything. It definitely is a combination of all of those pieces that build a solid foundation for contractors.
SPEAKER_01:Definitely. And we're, you know, we hear that all the time. There's just no good people out there. Well, there are good people, they're just not working for you. And you know, why do they want why would they want to come work for you? And there's a reason in exactly the way that you put it, where we had a great culture in my business, and guys are out talking wherever they, you know, they know all these roofers and so forth, and they're going, oh god, I love working where I am. And most other guys they just can't stand their boss, you know, they get treated right with with with with respect. Hey, you gotta come over here. So we always had um great people coming in, you know, and and and that's how you do it, and you get people to buy in that want to be part of it. And this just gets back to the leadership. You know, they want to work for winners, they want to work with some for somebody that has a plan. We spend a lot of time getting our business plans together so you can show people this is what this company is about, this is what our plan is. You see that mountaintop over there? That's where we're going. I'm gonna lead you there, and we're gonna, you know, this is how we're gonna do it. And that's really what's important. I have a little thing called the one-page business plan. Really simple. You go through, check the boxes basically. But the thing about planning is it's not so much the plan itself, but it's the process of planning. So when we go through these things, you know, you start with your why, and then we start digging into who's our customer and you know, getting clarity on that. That changes so much, but you have to understand who that is. And I know when it comes to branding, you know, who is it that you're speaking to? You know, you're you you've got to have a clear, absolute clear on who that avatar is, who you're who you're gonna sell to that ideal customer, because that's what's focused. And how do you differentiate yourself where you you're not driving down the street with a you know the little roof on there that all looks the same? You're like Emily, who's got roofings, you know. Yeah, Armadilla running around. Yeah, everybody knows her.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yes. I love that. I wrote that down. It's not the actual plan, it's the process of planning. And I love that. Like this, I mean that that applies to business, and that also applies to their marketing plan, right? So it's not always about us narrowing down every little detail, it's us walking through what's gonna generate more leads, what's gonna build our brand, and what how do we re rehash open estimates and get people sold and and how do we stay top of mind for referrals and things like that? That's definitely a big piece of it. Well, what I thought, Dave, is what about these? I have two questions for you. Um, so a brand new contractor, let's say they just bought a small company, they're right at a million or less, you know, a piece of advice for them, and then a piece of advice that maybe is in where like they're actually a pretty high revenue company, but they're low on profitability. What are some pieces of advice that you would give them, one or two pieces?
SPEAKER_01:Well, the first thing about the startup company is here's your business plan. Try to stand business the first two years because the cards are stacked against you.
SPEAKER_00:You can do it, you can do it, yes.
SPEAKER_01:That's right. And some, you know, some guys I talk with in my discovery calls, I can see, you know, they're just really not going to be cut out to be an entrepreneur. And and I let them know and they don't like it, but I say, you know, do you really want to invest your you know, blood, sweat, and tears into this business when you can go sell roofs for Emily May and make a ton of money? Yeah, right. And maybe that's the thing. Are you a leader? Do you have that um that have your head, you know, your your mind right to do that? So, but also it's getting clear on what you want to do, um, you know, what what that why is, but how are you gonna generate leads, you know, out the gate? It's tough. I mean, you after you go through your friends and family, you know, what are you going to do to market that business? And as you know, I mean, you've got to be everywhere. You and it's really tough because we'll say everybody wants to do a million dollars the first year. Okay, well, let's do that. We've got an average job size of 20, 20 grand, divide back the number of roofs that you're going to have to sell. It's as simple as that, it's just the math. And when they see that, you know, it's it's like, well, I couldn't do that. Sell a week a week.
SPEAKER_00:You know, yeah, yes. And I'm telling you, I see so much. Yes, I see that so much. They can't back into their numbers, and it's definitely the reality that I think a lot of people miss.
SPEAKER_01:Definitely, is that and if we if we go to this, you know, the relatively successful contractor, and this is a lot of the guys that I work with, you know, they'll get two, three, five million dollars in annual sales, and they just get stuck, and they've been there for you know, two, three, four years, and they can't get unstuck. So we've got to dig down again and look at what are the what are the problems here, what are the missing parts, what kind of people do you have, um, and making sure that we just get that stool back in balance. And a lot of the times, they just don't understand the numbers, they don't know what they need to charge and uh just how to run a successful business because you were right you said earlier, you know, I mean, it doesn't matter if you're selling roofs or selling shoes, you are in business, and that's it. So when everybody comes out and starts talking about what great craftsmen they are, well, that's all fine, then go put on roofs, but that's different than running a business.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, 100%. And I love how you said that, you know, they just don't know their numbers, you know, selling shoes or selling roofs, like both of those things. Like I'm literally writing down as fast as I can over here because I love these little nuggets, you know, that people I would if just one little nugget sticks in their head, a lot of times that'll help them overcome those things, but you know, know your numbers because it's easy the faster you can know your numbers. I mean, I even worry about that at Lemon Seed, like okay, do I know what is my average ticket? Like, I I work through those things as well. And so my piece of advice for the startup company is start marketing intentionally, and then if you're a larger company, like you may be turning a cruise ship, but you can still make a turn. Um, and so just start doing what you know you need to be doing, which to be truthful, know your numbers, know where you're spending marketing. And again, I come from a marketing aspect, but you know, know what your brand is, put your brand out there, get active on social media, all the things y'all don't want to hear. Um, you know, but my biggest things is if you want to grow larger than most people, you have to do what most people aren't willing to do. Um, and that is time and energy and effort. So while I love this whole, you know, mantra that people are in what now of work-life balance, I come from a culture of hustle. Um, and so I might have to hustle harder for a couple of years, but at the end of the day, um, I'm hoping that I'm able that hard work and that push um, you know, pays off for me in a different way. Well, Dave, thank you so much. In wrapping up here, let's say someone really wanted to uh get in contact with you and talk with you more. How, what is the best way for them to do that?
SPEAKER_01:Well, they can go to my website at therivercoach.com. And the best thing is I've got a couple of downloads, free downloads, and one of them was this one-page business plan. You know, it'll just get you thinking about the process and kind of building out that foundation. And then I've got something that I call the roofing success audit, and it's just yes or no. And you've got 50 questions go through yes or no, and it's about finances, also, you know, do you have do you pay your credit cards off every month? You know, just basic questions that involve your finance also, and keeping everything in balance, and it'll give you a pretty good idea of kind of where you stand compared to more successful contractors, also. So they can get that and then they can check out the services that I've got. I do, you know, really I'm kind of focused on mentoring because that's really where I think the contractors need help. It's just not in go to a seminar, learn this, and go do it because they don't. And it's having somebody that walks along with them on that path to success.
SPEAKER_00:I love that.
SPEAKER_01:That's what I've learned after a long time, and I've always had a business coach, and that was you know the reason for my success, I think.
SPEAKER_00:Well, business, I think everyone should have a coach. And when you get done with one coach, you move to a different coach. So, you know, coaching is definitely such an important part of holding yourself accountable. And honestly, like you can't think of everything, and you can read till you're blue in the face, but having someone else, like with the accountability and the pushing and the idea generation, the collaboration, so many positive things about having a business coach. So if you haven't done that, I highly encourage that. Dave, thank you so much for joining me today.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you. It's great to see you again, and we're gonna get we're gonna get you back on my show too.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, good. I'm excited. I'm excited. So, listen, for those of you that are uh listening uh from the yellow chair, we would love for you to share this with anyone in your network that may be trying to build a business and need a little encouragement on the business coaching side. Uh, leave us a review, follow us on all of our social media channels. But thank you for listening to another episode of From the Yellow Chair. We hope you have a great time, and we'll see you again next week.