From the Yellow Chair
From the Yellow Chair
ROAS: What Every Contractor Needs to Know
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Your ROAS number can look incredible and still be the reason you’re stuck. We sit down with Bree from Free Agency to get brutally clear on what return on ad spend can and can’t tell a contractor, especially when agencies blend brand traffic, existing customers, and true prospecting into one tidy report.
We walk through Bree’s “Moneyball marketing” framework, a practical marketing funnel built around attribution. We talk about why awareness channels like TV, radio, billboards, and community support often show low tracked ROAS while still creating real demand that later shows up as SEO, Google Business Profile calls, and branded search. Then we get tactical about the trackable layer: paid search, Local Services Ads, lead sources, and the day-to-day work of moving dollars toward what performs, without falling for inflated blended metrics.
We also cover the “base coverage” essentials like your website and SEO, plus the underrated “home run” play most contractors miss: monetizing your customer database with email, SMS, and thoughtful reactivation campaigns. If you’re a $1M to $3M home services business, we close with two priorities to tackle first: call tracking and avoiding shiny object syndrome so you can make decisions with clean data and keep the job board full.
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Welcome And What We’re Tackling
SPEAKER_00What's up, everybody? Welcome to another episode of From the Yellow Chair. I'm Crystal. And y'all, I'm not gonna lie, today I'm in the presence of what I call CMO royalty here. Brie is such an inspiration to me. I love talking to her, talking shop. She's one of the people that really gets it. And so I really enjoy it. So you're gonna want to settle in for this one. You're probably gonna need a notepad to take some cool notes because we're just gonna spout off a bunch of our frustrations and points of interest and all those good things all around your entire marketing strategy and probably where you're missing the boat. So grab some lemonade and let's get to it. Bree, welcome to the party.
SPEAKER_01I love it. Thank you for having me. The yellow chair, the lemonade stand. I'm I'm here for it.
SPEAKER_00All the things, all the things. So yes. So right now, as most of you guys know, I have Lemon Seed Marketing and Brie has free agency. We actually share work a lot with each other and um we complain to each other, we grow, we talk. It's a great relationship. So as we started talking about this month's
ROAS Expectations And Holistic Growth
SPEAKER_00themes for Lemon Seed have all been around, you know, knowledge-based stuff. Um, and so I think ROAS is always one of those things that contractors really struggle with understanding how a holistic marketing strategy really works. And so, Brie, I know you have some great visuals. So if they're only listening today, I encourage you to listen and we'll do our best. But go watch this episode on YouTube because we're also going to be showing some things on screen today. Am I right? How do you feel?
SPEAKER_01Yes, no, I love this. I feel like uh I've struggled for a lot of my career to kind of explain return on ad spend, how much of it is and isn't a marketing metric, right? Because there's yeah, a lot of it is operations too. Um, but also like the differences, right? And like what is good ROAS, what is bad, but also what you can expect on different channels, because the expectation can't be that it's all gonna hit it out of the park and be a 10, 20 ROAS, right? So I like this little visual storytelling that we've kind of gotten into with the money ball marketing theme to explain like what it is, what it should be, um, or the trades.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and thank you for that. Because I mean, it's like I say this quite often with lemon seed, and the same thing with free agency, our goal is always like let me help you set expectations that are reasonable for performance. And just because something's not easily measurable as an advertising tactic does not mean it's not a good tactic.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Um, because we're addicted to that little cocaine bump of PPC and GLSA and things like that, that you can make a one-to-one correspondence. Like, you guys, like y'all live for that adrenaline rush. Um, when really it's this, I call it the compounding effect of just you know, layering on all that marketing that really makes a holistic approach. So, and with ROAS, I say this quite often. People are like, Crystal, how much should I spend? I know you get these same questions, like, if I want to grow by this much, how much should I spend? And you've shared lots of things with me that have shown me some tools too that my team uses now. But you know, there's not, I wish that marketing was an exact science, so then everyone could do it, but it's not, and so many nuances and factors come into play. And we have to look at every company, every budget, every structure, every process with a different lens every single time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I feel like like the most common thing I hear is like, oh, but this agency told me to spend 10% if I want to grow 20%, like as if they've actually done the math. We always do the math. And it's to your point, like so much of it is like nuanced and subjective, and you have to kind of take your experience and apply it. Um, I say in a way that like we're kind of betting on uh our experience and you know, context to be able to achieve certain results. Um, we certainly bet our retention on it because we're month to month. So we have to, you know, kind of take some, take some gambles in place. But um, yeah, I feel like it's just a lot of like you can reverse engineer to a degree, um, but it's never gonna land perfectly the same. But that's kind of why we came up with these these formulas and the idea, right? Is like if you're a you know, five-year-old business and you're trying to grow 30%, yeah, 10% marketing might make sense. 15% marketing might even make sense, right? But if you're a 50-year-old business and you're steadily growing 10% per year, regardless, you might be spending 2%. And that might be just fine. You might want to enjoy that profitability, right? Right. But it's always different. So just be wary, I would say, always of, you know, kind of the generalizations.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, yeah. Because and like in Lemon Seed will do this too. Like, hey, if you want to grow, we've got to spend this amount. And one of the struggles that we still face, um, and again, we have a little bit of a different target market of who we serve as clients, uh, free agency in Lemon Seed, but you know, one of the problems I face is the big one of the biggest issues I see with contractors less than five million is they don't know their numbers. So I literally have to say, like, you fell into five million dollars by accident. Um, and if we were more intentional with like, because it the minute that I say what's your average ticket ticket, and you go, Well, I'm like, nope, nope, nope, this is not gonna be good. Um, so like right now, you should be able to tell me your conversion rate, your average ticket, your average install, even if it's just like there's always gonna be some caveats and some excuses. Listen, even a good excuse is still an excuse, sure. Um, but to not know your numbers, because so much of marketing is based on those numbers and performance. And so that's why we say, like, operations. I can't let you off the hook where marketing has to carry the majority of it. Well, I know you have some stuff that you want to share with us, and so let's start where you want to start. What do you want to share first?
SPEAKER_01Let's go.
The Moneyball Marketing Funnel
SPEAKER_01Okay, so I feel like the money ball marketing concept, it is very like adjacent to a uh sorry, I'm trying to share my screen. It's very adjacent to like a funnel, right? Like it it looks like a funnel. Uh, and to a degree, uh, it's kind of organized, like your general uh awareness at the top, you know, demand at the bottom kind of funnel. Um, but I have added things in here that I feel like make it easier for contractors to kind of understand what they should be spending where and why, if you want to like kind of do your best to reverse engineer your way into growth. Um, so at the top of it here, like any kind of you know, marketing funnel, the top is always going to be awareness, right? But what's what's different here and what we've kind of defined is these areas that are actually both awareness but lower attribution. Um, which kind of means that like you just don't get great return on ad spend numbers, even when you do great tracking setup. For that reason, we don't like to spend a ton of budget here because there's less certainty that the return is going to, you know, yield whatever results. So we like to bet more on the high attribution channels like paid search, LSA, right? Because those are easy to track. But if you think about it, from an attribution perspective, TV, radio, outdoor, really any of these, kind of what they all have in common is that they're like fleeting moments where yes, you can put a phone number on a TV spot, you could even do a QR code on a billboard, but these moments of advertising are really passing by quickly. And what you hope to achieve is that there's some kind of brand retention in these ad mediums, because even if you have, you know, the phone number, the QR code, the UTM setup, the DNI on your website for when they pass through the QR code, even if you do everything perfectly, the tracked return on ad spend that you might get from these channels is likely going to be between zero and two, right? That doesn't mean that they don't work, it just means that a lot of people who see you on TV or see your billboard are going to remember your brand and later Google your name or go to your Google Business profile and call you from there. So that's why like SEO and things like that tend to over-index, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So this and you know this compound, like these things here, I call it environmental awareness. So these are literally just for awareness. And so again, especially right now, you know, we were we were kind of joking about this in the beginning. Right now, with this big PE overhaul,
Low Attribution Awareness Channels
SPEAKER_00the first thing they do is dump all the fans. That's the first thing they do. Well, because you know why? Because they cannot measure it, and it drives their little hardware selves nuts that they cannot see it in a spreadsheet. And I'm like, just because it's not measurable does not mean it's not impactful, it impacts the overall brand journey for a potential client. Um, and I love this side because this is really where brand loyalty and brand recognition comes. Because listen, I don't want clients, I do not want to be in the MMA ring that is PPC any longer than I have to. Same girl.
SPEAKER_01You know, um I came from PPC and I hate it. I do everything I can to get away from spending on Google, you know. Yeah, I feel like, but that's to your point, like that's where the opportunity is too, because you know that like as soon as PE buys up one of your competitors, they're ditching all these mediums pretty quickly, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's it's a sign like go add go add some community support, go buy some any sort of mass media, and now all of a sudden you are where they were. Yep, exactly.
SPEAKER_01So, you know, because we're kind of you know gambling folks who uh do a lot more direct response and focus a lot on high attribution performance marketing, a lot of our time and energy uh tend to focus in this area, which we call fielding. And
High Attribution Prospecting And Optimization
SPEAKER_01it's just it's not that it's better than branding or awareness, it's just that it's more trackable, right? So if somebody calls uh from your Google ad uh extension, it's gonna show up in Service Titan as Google Ads. The revenue is gonna show under that campaign. You immediately know what you spent that day versus the revenue you generated. So it's very high attribution and easy to say, oh, I generated a four or five return on ad spend on Google Ads non-brand. And therefore, I can compare it to say something like Angie that might also generate a five or a six. And I can reasonably say, because this is like, you know, what we're doing all day, is basically looking at all these five, sixes, fours, twos, and tens and saying, let's move the dollars towards more of the tens, try to turn as many of the fives into tens as we can, and in the meantime, move the budget towards all the higher channels, cut the lower channels, and that's how we optimize for more revenue, right? From a high level. It's just a lot of that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh, but that's not just online either. I like to say, one, I don't include brand in here, you'll see that in a in a later section, or remarketing in paid social. I consider those kind of separate areas. Uh, or uh your database in this layer of direct mail. So this layer of the funnel prospecting. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But that's also why it's only two to 10, right? A lot of people have, you know, agency presented allusions on these numbers because you know they're getting these PPC reports that are like you a 12 ROAS or a 50 potential ROAS, right? Uh, that on these reports that include brand, include your existing customers and all that. And those channels aren't scalable, right? Without doing more awareness, more top funnel. So, you know, it it tends to add up and get more expensive if you look at the pure prospecting value.
SPEAKER_00So, like these are like in purgatory. Okay. So, like it's because they still play so much of a role in brand awareness, you know, seeing those paid socials, seeing that repetitive postcard hitting your mailbox when you haven't used a company, seeing magazine ads, your local listing, like all those things. It, but they still they're a little bit more directional, like you mentioned. Um, and that's why I love this like second level here of like easier to manage than a billboard, not as great as some other things that are coming next, you know? Yeah, but on that paid search, you mentioned something like very very fleetingly, but on that paid search, you said, Hey, I don't include branding here. Yes. Meaning I call it raw searching, yeah, like raw dogging this thing of like AC repair near
Why Non Brand ROAS Matters
SPEAKER_00me kind of stuff. Yeah. Not not searching for a specific company, right? 100%.
SPEAKER_01Let me because we've got this beautiful luxury of screen sharing, let me show you here kind of what what um why that's so important. Um, so on this screen, the the problem with that is most agencies will give you a blended number of your Google Ads uh PPC account, right? They'll say, Oh, you know, uh Crystal, this month we generated you a five to one return on ad spend. And you might be like, Well, that's great. I spent $100,000, I got $500, and I'm looking to grow. So why don't this is just an example, why don't we throw another $100,000 at it, right? The problem is if you look at these numbers, uh, you can see that brand in this example, which is a real example, really carries the totality of the return, right? If your agency presented you just non-brand at a 2.5, you would not say, great, take another $100,000, right? Um, so that's the challenge, is the agencies will give this excuse of like, oh, we don't even, you know, track or present brands separately because we spend 5% on it, right? It's not even worth it. We can just assume it's 5% of the revenue. That's not the case because it can be more than 50% of the revenue, even at less than 10% of the spend, right? Because that's usually existing customers coming back. You know, maybe they you've been, they've been a member for years and they're finally ready to do an install or an upgrade, right? So that's where the revenue manifests. And then the problem becomes if they don't tell you that, you know, and you don't segment that layer of non-brand by itself, and you were to increase $100,000 at that 2.5, you would then be confused as to why one month you spent $100,000 and get a 5X, and the next month you spend $200,000 and get a 3.5, right? So that's the problem, is we really need that like pure prospecting uh number in order for us to be able to say this is or isn't a good investment, especially in the context of other prospecting mediums where we could say, you know, Angie is pure new customers, paid social, we've excluded, you know, site visitors, for example, and our database, it's just new customers or direct mail, we are only mailing uh non-customers, we've excluded our customers. So that's why it's so important to filter those things out of this layer so that we can have a pure return on ad spend number and have the ability to move dollars between channels to get you more revenue back for new customers.
SPEAKER_00Uh yes, I I just this is a um a mindset shift here for most contractors because marketing in their brains, I think, is this big jumbled mess. When I'm a big like, so at Thanksgiving, I need a compartmentalized plate, okay? Because I don't want my food touching. I like things compartmentalized, okay? So this is the way for clients for contractors to start compartmentalizing a little bit of like your expectations, what you can push and pull, what you need to be doing. So this is a great way to look at it. And I always love listening to that part. So here's our little mid-level should get 80% of your budget.
SPEAKER_01That's what you know, that's what we do. And look, not to say it has to, like there's you know, plenty of people who, you know, do more on the branding side, and that's fine. I love that. It's just where we tend to push when we're aiming for like 20% growth plus per year, right? Is just pushing as much as we can towards the trackable areas. Um, because the other nice thing, obviously, as you know, is like it's way easier to turn on and increase budget on channels that are digital with high attribution and know what it did or didn't do that day versus you know, print or like uh a billboard, anything that you have to plan out, right? Um, and also I'll mention the reason that I do have print and direct mail here is it's not necessarily offline versus online. It's really high attribution versus low attribution. And print and direct mail, unlike the other branding areas, are not fleeting moments that disappear in 30 seconds when the spot's over. They are print items that you can hold in your hand, stick on your fridge, put in your drunk drawer, and scan later. So the attribution actually does tend to hold similar to digital mediums, and thus it's a decent investment and something that you can consider in this uh area of prospecting.
SPEAKER_00Love. Yeah, love it.
SEO And Brand As Base Coverage
SPEAKER_01And the next one is where all the agency fluff tends to land. And what I say is just covering your bases. So SEO, website, uh buying your brand on Google is fine. We can do all of those things. I don't say don't do those things. It's just that relative to your budget, the return is going to skew much higher because it's harder to separate existing customers from this area. So a great example. I see it on Facebook all the time. Uh, fortunately, less lately, I feel like people are catching on. But like, I used to always see these crazy reports people would post that would say, like, I have a thousand ROAS on SEO.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01And it's like, okay, by the math of you know, your revenue in the context of your spend, that may be true. You may be spending a thousand dollars a month and generating a million, whatever. But the key here is you couldn't spend 2,000 a month and then magically generate 2 million. It's just not gonna happen because there's not enough of it represents true prospecting. So much of it is just catching attribution from existing customers that, yeah, your your SEO agency can say that they generated you a 300 ROAS, then shit on your PPC energy or agency who generated you a three ROAS. But the reality is one is prospecting and scalable, and the other is more catching all of the other efforts you've placed up at the top of the funnel where the awareness is, right? So that's where all the revenue manifests from all those awareness areas. It's a little, you know, it's harder to measure, but it lands on your website, your business profiles, uh, brand name and remarketing. Hence why only 5% of the budget there. And if you doubled it to 10%, you wouldn't double your revenue.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and that this is where people get the confusion of people be like, I do a lot of marketing. I have a website, and I'm like, okay, yes. So it's one piece. Like, I'm like, if you built a puzzle, the puzzle is gonna have more than one piece, yeah, right? And they're like, Yeah, I get it. So I'm like, there's so much more to a comprehensive and holistic marketing strategy than websites. So I love to see this, but it is covering your basis, it is a definite foundational piece that contractors need to invest in. But like right now, and I know we could do a whole another podcast episode on this, but right now it's all like what platform do I build on? Do I believe all of this? What do I do? And I'm like, you know what? The truth is, there's lots of ways to win this game. Yes, there's lots of ways to still win. Do not panic that you're about to be put out of business, you know.
SPEAKER_01Agent focused website.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I think right now it's a place of like, I think it's our duty to look up and look around to make sure we're not getting left behind, but like we're not suicidal jumping off of bridges because we don't know what's gonna happen, you know. So it's definitely a fine line there for sure.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and like for us, it's like you know, I'm never like like in a rush to overhaul any crazy shit or expect like uh, you know, a hundred percent increase in your SEO revenue year over year, right? It's like these things compound over time. Um, I think of it as more of like a long-term investment with your website and like brand building and stuff like that. You always want to do these things, but you can't overinvest too quickly either. Yes, yes, hard for anyone who hears the my dogs. Your doggies, it's okay. We got four, it's a full house, you know. When they see something outside, can't even help
Monetizing Your Customer Database
SPEAKER_01it. Um, this is another really important area, and it's kind of like our hack, to be honest, because so many people do not have a solution for monetizing their database. It's like the first thing we implement, usually like within month one, because it immediately generates like a bump in leads, revenue, when you start nurturing customers that you've already paid for, um, but you're otherwise not communicating with. So uh home runs is anything that touches an existing. Customer, whether it's direct mail for 60 cents or you know, an SMS for less than a penny or an email for free, right? Um, we want to monetize the database. And that doesn't mean that's not that doesn't mean we want to just blast them with, you know, flash sale on tune-up SMS every day, right? Like we want to be thoughtful and strategic about it, um, you know, and and have kind of coordinating messages across different mediums. So email, SMS, ringless voicemail. Um, there's even like AI outbound these days. So like these are all things we want to do and deploy right away. And they have a disproportionately high return on ad spend, of course, because you're spending pennies to reactivate someone who you've already paid hundreds for in the past. Um, but it's the same concept with like SEO, where yes, you want to do it, it's a base you want to cover, um, but you're not gonna overspend uh and over put too much energy there because you don't want to exhaust what's there and reach a point of diminishing returns because you're investing too heavily in an area that has a fixed size and isn't gonna grow anymore until you fill the top of the funnel.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01So that's how we think about it. And whether that's hat or chirp doesn't matter to us. It's just like, hey, interact with your existing database, monetize it. Um, that's what we care about.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and cultivating those people, like it's you've already spent so much money to get them. Yep. Like, let's spend money to keep them and keep them engaged for sure. Yeah. So,
Brand Investment Lowers Lead Costs
SPEAKER_00you know, another another little quick thought that I have here is, and I mentioned mindset to you earlier, you know, is really understanding that you're having a solid brand that is authentic, that you feel safe talking about, that really identifies who you are as a company. I think it really does help all of your other marketing perform better. And so if you have a very simple brand that's nothing new to it, and listen, a red and blue arrow, a water drop, a fan, a sun, there those are not unique anymore. They used to be. Um, so listen, takes one to know when when I first went to Mick Williams, we were like a radiant sun. Okay. Um, and then we ended up like these caricaturizations of my dad, my grandfather, and my brother. And now we have a full Sailor Mac costume. And it's because we had to adapt, right? We had to adapt to not necessarily being on trend, but we had to be relevant and we had to look like we were up and coming all the time. Because you never want to look dated. Because when you drive up and you look dated, that doesn't command more money, that doesn't command respect and authority. And so that's always been my passion behind like if people really understood that how a brand can truly impact your overall marketing performance, it's a game changer.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's it's crazy like the differences in, you know, someone who hasn't invested in their brand, their collateral, you know, their community versus, you know, someone who's just paying for leads all day, doing lead gen and no, you know, awareness investment. Um, it's just a much longer road and you build up your database so much slower. Um, you could be spending like 20% on marketing just to, you know, to keep up. Whereas someone who's invested in their brand is how you end up at, you know, less than 10%, sometimes less than 5% with like 50-year-old brands, right? So it's super relevant. The the more you invest in your brand up front, the less you have to pay for leads later.
SPEAKER_00I mean, it's it's very true. I see it every day. All right, Bree. So I know we just kind of ran through that.
Tracking First Then Ignore Shiny Objects
SPEAKER_00We talked a lot about that. Right now, if you had to tell somebody three million, let's say one to three million dollar contractor, what are the two things they would probably need to look at right now? So they don't have a ton of budget, but there what are two things that they should prioritize right now?
SPEAKER_01Um, I think that something that is often overlooked at that range is not having call tracking set up to even have some sort of measurement and idea on what they're getting for their spend, right? Um, especially in that range. Like if they're on House Call Pro, they might not have a separate, you know, phone number tracking system. They might not have, you know, the direct integrations with some of the ad platforms to see, you know, how their offline leads are turning into online leads or, you know, whatever else from the forms and all that. Um, so that tends to be like the first place we look and identify is like if we can just figure out, you know, where you are, it makes it so much easier to see how far you are from where you want to be, right? Like if you don't know that your Google Ads is performing at a two ROAS and you know your direct mail is performing at a six, but your agency is saying invest more on Google Ads, you know, you're just burning money. And it's just a factor of not tracking or trusting an external party to set up all that tracking for you, right? So I think that's the the biggest one. Yeah, it's just tracking. It's not that hard. And you then you look at the spend in the context of the revenue, then you know, you know, your cost per lead, your cost per job, your return on ad spend, and you can make good decisions about what how much how many more leads you want to get or how much more revenue you want to get.
SPEAKER_00I love it, I love it. And and it's often such a miss, a miss for them, or they'll say, Well, I don't really believe in tracking numbers, and I'm like, Okay, like you're some kind of conspiracy theorist. Like tracking numbers, what they do is it just brings so much visibility and data to things. And again, it's not that you automatically dismiss things, it's just having a clear understanding. So I love that. Do you have one more?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so everybody has shiny object syndrome, and it's a really cool time to be alive and like technology and all the possibilities. And I hear people talking about how Claude is going to replace their CRM, right? Like, that's awesome. I get it. Um, and I love shiny objects too, right? We're always trying to like pursue the new things, but I think just like the most like earth-shattering like recommendations I can give everybody is just focusing on the basics. And that's why my marketing advice is starting with tracking, right? Is look at your data and don't get so distracted that you start building your for agents, for example. Like, you know what I mean? Like, not that that's a bad thing to consider, right? That AI is here and AI is gonna be the future of search. Like, we're testing GPT ads too. Like these things do matter, but work where you are today and live off the data you have today. Um, yes, investing in the future, but don't overhedge on those things when you need to fill the job board today. Like, don't go crazy interviewing AEO optimization specialists who are going to charge you $10,000 a month on SEO when you know you haven't even looked at your meta titles and meta descriptions for the pages you do have, right? Or understand the speed of the website you already have, or looked at you know, the keywords that you are aren't ranking for and set up the tracking numbers on your website to be able to source those visitors. Um, so yeah, shiny object syndrome, do your best to avoid being volatile, just be focused on the data that you have, hence tracking numbers, and then doing the right things with that data and following it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, just calm down. Calm down. Like you're right. Most of the time they've over-diversified, they're spending too little, and it's just sheer chaos sometimes. And then they feel it, they feel that in their marketing. So,
How To Connect And Share
SPEAKER_00well, Bree. So I've loved it. I love talking with you. If people wanted to reach out to you, what's the best way for them to do that? Uh, go to freeagency.ai and you can get a free game plan. Awesome. And then we're sharing some stuff that you sent us over in our show notes as well. If you're just listening to this, I want to remind you go check out this episode on YouTube and watch uh Bree share the first part of this conversation. Again, Limited Marketing, a fractional CMO department, basically, team. Um, along with free agency, we do a similar model. Um, and so both of us would love to help contractors have a full, complete strategy for their marketing, help you build a brand. So thank you guys for listening to another episode of From the Yellow Chair. If you think someone needs to hear this, share us, tag me, or Bree, or both of us. Um, we would love to share his friends and family talk free. Thanks for Stimmid Lemonade with us. We'll see you next time.